Steve: Hi. This is naturalist Wildman Steve Brill. You’re listening to Foraging with the Wildman. We're on WBAI every two weeks, on Wednesdays between one and two, looking at the world of nature and ecology—looking at some of the positive aspects of what our environment has to offer. People, of course, are part of the environment, although our culture discourages that kind of view, and as such the plants that are the most common life forms in our environment (at least on a scale that we can see) have a relationship with us, for food and for medicine. Our topic today is herbal medicine and my special guest is Madeleine Glick, who is a registered dietitian with a background in herbs and natural healing. Sort of sounds like a contradiction in terms, a naturally oriented registered dietitian, but she exists and she's sitting right next to me. Hi, Madeleine, how are you?

Madeleine: Good, Steve. How are you doing today?

Steve: Very good. It’s nice to have you on the air. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background, and you do not seem to be advocating Jell-O and artificial chemicals.

Madeleine: Ha ha! Okay, as you mentioned I am a clinical nutritionist and a registered dietitian. I have a master's in nutrition from NYU, and I also have studied herbs, and I practice as an herbalist as well. My education aside from the formal education includes study with Bernard Jensen and Ed Burke, an herbalist. And of course I studied with you a number of years ago. That’s where I learned a lot about the wild plants and the medicinal plants that we can find in this area.

Steve: Okay, and what about your education? What was dietetics school like?

Madeleine: Well, it was actually a little bit worse than I thought it was going to be, although we did learn a lot of the basic nutrition as far as biochemistry and about vitamins and minerals. Most dietitians do not advocate supplements in terms of herbal or vitamin or mineral supplements at all. They believe that everything you can get you get from your diet, and they also think that everyone should be on a low-fat diet and that means you should eat margarine. . . and a little bit of olive oil on your salad, but that’s about it. And you can eat as much sugar as you want to because sugar isn’t bad for you, and they don’t really think coffee's bad for you. They don’t use herbs. They probably know a little bit about peppermint tea since you can buy that in the supermarket, but that’s about it.

Steve: Well, I’d agree with that partially. You can get all the toxins you need from a conventional diet, as described. How did you get into this area?

Madeleine: Well, I was. . . a number of years ago. . . I was eating a lot of junk food—a lot of sugar and caffeine, and I found that as my energy began to diminish I turned to alternative sources of healing and I went to a lot of doctors and found that they said there was nothing wrong with me because based on all the lab tests and all the biochemical measurements there was nothing they could diagnose. And I think that happens to a lot of people who seek alternative methods of healing because they've gone through the mainstream and they find that there are no answers for them. So I gradually became interested in nutrition and went to see a nutritionist and changed my diet and worked on some supplements and detoxified, and I began to feel much better. And that’s where my interest started.

Steve: Let's talk about some of the herbs that you’ve been using. What are some of the things that you’ve found, say, on my walks in this area that are really important medicinally? How do they work and what do you use them for? Which herb would you like to start with?

Madeleine: Okay, why don’t we talk about burdock, because that’s one of my favorite herbs. I think a lot of people can benefit from burdock. It’s a blood purifier. It’s very good for the skin—any kind of skin conditions like acne or eczema—or even cysts would be very good to use burdock for. You can combine it with other herbs, some of the Chinese herbs which we’ll talk about later, like donquai, which I think a lot of people are familiar with. It’s also a diuretic. It has inulin, which is a polysaccharide which is very good for the liver and the gall bladder. So anyone who's hypoglycemic or diabetic who has problems with blood sugar would want to include burdock in their regimen.

Steve: Right, I’ve heard inulin works like a sugar but it doesn’t cause secretion of insulin the way other forms of sugar do.

Madeleine: Right, it actually has a regulating effect on the blood sugar levels. Burdock also has chromium in it, which is very important for maintaining of blood sugar—so that could be another reason it helps with this too.

Steve: Oh, wonderful. And I just sent my manuscript for my book to the publisher and I didn’t know that chromium was in burdock.

Madeleine: Oh, you’ve got to get it back, then.

Steve: Oh, I probably will. We've had some experience with burdock on the field walks. As most of you know I lead wild food and ecology walks in the parks. We’ll be going to Central Park this Sunday, Alley Pond Park this Saturday. The following weekend we have the New Jersey Palisades on Saturday and Bear Mountain on Sunday, July 18th. Keep a pencil and paper handy. At the end of the show we’ll give you the phone numbers for all the information you need. We had one tour in Central Park where the burdock was in a very very unusual state. See, the burdock root is very very deep—and I know you’ve dug up burdock, right?

Madeleine: Only after about two hours of digging. So I usually require some help for that.

Steve: The plant comes from Asia and now it’s all over the northern part of North America. When you dig it up and pull and dig it just doesn’t come up—you think there’s a hungry Asian on the other end pulling in the other direction. But once in Central Park bulldozers had dug a trench and the burdock was growing right alongside the trench so that the roots were actually exposed, and I dove into that trench head first when I saw it. Everyone stood on the edge watching me, scratching their heads, and then I started pulling the burdock out through the side of the trench instead of digging for each root for ten or fifteen minutes—just pulled each one out sideways and then tossed it up over the edge. Of course, when I came up over the edge and emerged all the burdock was completely gone. The people on the walk had taken every last one of them. But the root is quite delicious. Have you eaten burdock root too, Madeleine?

Madeleine: Yeah, it’s great. You can steam it and mix it with other vegetables. You can even put in soups or salads. It really tastes wonderful. It has a really delicate taste. It’s not as bitter as dandelion, which we’ll talk about next.

Steve: No, it’s not bitter at all. I think the inulin makes it a little bit sweet.

Madeleine: Uh-huh.

Steve: And the burdock that you collect is much better than the burdock you buy. One of the other things—that’s the burdock root—a nice thing about burdock root is that it’s in season from April right into November. A lot of roots, because they store food underground for rapid spring growth, lose all the food by May and you usually pick them October, November and then again March and April, but burdock you pick the entire season. A two-year plant, you pick the first-year root, not the second-year root. By the time it has a flower stalk you can clip off the immature flower stalk in the spring and use that as a cooked vegetable, but when the flower stalk has flowers and burrs on it, that particular plant is no longer good. It then dies, the burrs get stuck to your clothing and that’s how the seeds spread. It’s a wonderful, wonderful plant—everyone’s trying to kill it all the time but it’s quite delicious—and it’s a renewable resource. Okay, what else would you like to talk about, as far as herbs that are growing around here?

Madeleine: Well, dandelion, which I think everyone can probably identify in their backyard, or even in Central Park if you need to, is a wonderful spring tonic. A lot of people tend to eat real heavy foods in the winter and by the springtime and even into the summer you want to have something to detoxify. It’s very good for the liver—it also will detoxify the liver. It can be used with other herbs such as milk thistle, which is also good for the liver. The roots have a lot of minerals and nutrition in them, so they’re going to be, again, very nutritious. It, the root, is very bitter, the dandelion root is very bitter, so you probably wouldn’t want to cook it as a vegetable but you can drink it as a tea. You can also have the roasted root as a very good coffee substitute, if you want to try to get yourself off of coffee. And the leaf is also beneficial. It can be put in salads and it tends to also taste bitter, so it’s very good for your digestion: it can help you increase your stomach juices so that you digest your food better. It is a diuretic and it’s also a blood and lymphatic cleanser.

Steve: Outside of that it does nothing.

Madeleine: Right.

Steve: And the time to pick the leaves is early in the spring before they get really bitter, and then again late in the fall. And you get more vitamin A, potassium, iron and calcium than practically any other vegetable, except maybe watercress, which we’ll be finding in Alley Pond Park on Sunday, and lamb's-quarters, which we find now on almost every single walk. Dandelions are great—you do want to pick in unpolluted areas away from heavy traffic. And you want to identify everything with a hundred-percent certainty—just listening to this show is not enough to make you knowledgeable enough to go out and pick all these things yourself. There are deadly plants out there, which can do you in very, very easily, so you want to go with me or with another expert and be sure you’ve identified everything with 100% certainty. Nature is very rich and very complex, but like anything rich and complex you have to know what you’re doing. Okay, what other herb would you like to talk about?

Madeleine: Well, I just wanted to mention that lamb's-quarters, besides tasting really wonderful as either a cooked or a raw vegetable have more vitamin A and calcium than spinach. So you might want to look to the wild plants for the nutrition. There’s a lot of times vegetables have been sitting around in the store too long, and they don’t contain as much nutrients, because the soil that they’re grown in is not as mineral-rich as the soil that you get out in the parks or in the wild.

Steve: So in your practice, when you see clients, you’re giving them high-quality nutrients and guiding them in that direction, as well as the herbs.

Madeleine: Yes. In fact, I would recommend for anyone who would want to improve their diet to go on some of your walks and learn about the plants so that they can collect them themselves, because there’s no comparison between buying something in the supermarket and getting it in the field where it’s fresh and has a lot of nutrition in it.

Steve: Well, thank you very much.

Madeleine: You’re welcome. The next herb I was thinking about talking about is violets, and violets are really beautiful in the springtime and make a nice addition to any salad with their violet flowers and their leaves. They have a heart-shaped leaf—although you’d still want Steve to help you identify which ones they are.

Steve: Yeah, there are poisonous plants with heart-shaped leaves too.

Madeleine: Right. And they’re primarily a women's herb. They’re very good for reproductive problems, for fibrocystic breast disease, for tumors. They can be used preventatively or to treat any of these conditions.

Steve: And how do you use them for medicine? Do you make an infusion of the leaf?

Madeleine: You can make an infusion of the leaf, and you can also use the flower. I prefer to use them in a salad. Since they’re readily available in the spring and in summer I like to pick—collect some and add them to a salad and eat them that way. I think that’s a very good way to use them, to get them fresh.

Steve: They are delicious. According to the ancient Greeks, the way the violets originated—the violet flowers—Zeus came down to earth looking for a good time. And he met a water nymph by the name of Io—Io translated into English is violet—and they started partying. Except Zeus was married, and his wife was not very pleased. Zeus got scared that he would get caught, so he turned Io into a cow. That way she wouldn’t be discovered. She wound up eating the grass, which is what cows do, but it hurt her mouth and she started to cry. Well, Zeus felt sorry for her, and he turned all her teardrops into beautiful violets. And that’s where the violets come from.

Madeleine: That’s a nice story (laughs). Okay, the next one I want to talk about is chickweed, and chickweed is very nutritious. Like all the other green plants, it has a lot of Vitamin C and has some Vitamin A. It also can act as an herbal diet supplement, which I know a lot of people are concerned about. It can help balance your metabolism—increase your absorption of nutrients. It’s good for. . . as a diuretic, if you have cystitis or bladder infections it can help you with that. It’s very cooling if you have any kind of fever or infection. And it’s very good in the summer, because I think a lot of people crave cooling foods when it’s hot outside.

Steve: Right, it’s great in salads and it’s probably the only herb you can find all year around. We were in High Rock Park last week and it was growing adjacent to the parking lot. So everyone was collecting it there. . . sort of unexpected because High Rock is very wooded, and chickweed needs a certain amount of sun. It even grows in the winter when there’s. . . if it’s above freezing, and it is getting some sunlight. It’s close to the ground, so it benefits when there are no leaves on the trees and no taller plants shading it out. It has natural antifreezes in it, which allows it to survive the cold better than other plants. Lots of medicinal usages, but don’t try putting it in the radiator of your car. It’s not that kind of antifreeze! And one other thing. . . what I’ve read about chickweed is that it contains steroidal components.

Madeleine: It does, yes. And that can help you with cysts and to detoxify.

Steve: It’s also supposed to help you break down fat a little. It’s something they have in the health food store in all of the weight-loss formulas. So apparently you’re better off using the fresh chickweed if you can get it. It’s very common.

Madeleine: And it tastes good too. It’s not bitter at all.

Steve: Yes. It tastes a little bit like corn-on-the-cob, or maybe like the corn silk—very nice hardy flavor—when it’s raw. When you cook it, it tastes like creamed spinach. I cook it very, very lightly. The way you’re best supposed to cook leafy greens if you are cooking them is not on a steamer with water underneath (and certainly not boiling them—everyone knows that already) you wash off the greens, shake off the extra water (this is how people used to cook spinach) put the greens in a heavy pot—no water, no steamer—covered. The water that clings to the leaves is enough to cook them—and then you cook it on low heat about five or ten minutes until it’s just wilted. Then you’ve destroyed a minimum of nutrients, you’ve increased the digestibility, and all the flavor is still in the vegetable. So that’s a really good way. You’ve had chickweed that way, haven’t you?

Madeleine: Mostly I like it raw.

Steve: Yeah, I like it raw too. Sometimes we find such large quantities that we can’t eat all the chickweed raw.

Madeleine: You know what you can also do is, if you have a juicer and you make carrot juice or any other kind of juices you can put any of these. . . dandelions or chickweed or any of these things into your juicer, and get the nutrition that way too.

Steve: Right, that would make a very, very powerful juice. I know some people have trouble taking supplements. They have difficulty digesting and absorbing them. These wild plants and herbs, besides the specific medicinal effects seem to have very, very concentrated nutrients, including ones that haven’t been discovered. Anyway, this is Foraging with the Wildman. I'm naturalist Wildman Steve Brill. My guest is Madeleine Glick, and you can get in touch with Madeleine, if you need further information after the show, by calling (212) 879-6536. That’s (212) 879-6536. We're going to be opening the phones in a few minutes, so you can give us a call at WBAI Radio at (212) 279-3400— that’s 279-3400—and we’ll be answering your questions about wild herbs and also our next topic, which will be Chinese herbs. It’s one twenty and we’ll be opening up the phones in about ten minutes or so. So, Madeleine, you’ve been studying Chinese herbs as well. Tell us how you got into that.

Madeleine: Well, Chinese medicine is very similar to western herbal medicine, but there’s a little more subtlety involved. It also involves sort of an energetic basis. And holistic medicine, as everyone knows, is the integration of mind, body and spirit, and in terms of herbal medicine you wouldn’t treat just symptoms, you would also treat the whole person and try to rebalance the body. Well, in Chinese medicine we talk about something called chi, which is your vital force or energy. And by using herbs to rebalance the body we're also manipulating chi. The western model of chi would be that you have three trillion cells in your body and each cell is producing energy. And if you’re healthy the energy is flowing evenly. If you’re not healthy, if you’re ill, or you have some kind of imbalance in the body, then your chi is either blocked or it’s deficient. And one. . . this can happen in any number of different organ systems, so by using the herbs we are actually altering the energetic patterns within the body.

Steve: Well, I know one of the herbs that is used in Chinese medicine is the hawthorn berry. And you told me an interesting incident that happened to you. This was years ago. Madeleine was coming on. . . just starting to attend my field walks. . . very excited about learning about herbs, and when I showed her hawthorn berries in Prospect Park her eyes lit up. These berries taste like apples.

Madeleine: They’re wonderful.

Steve: They are, yeah. They’re good for the heart, they reduce cholesterol levels, they’re full of nutrients—vitamins and minerals, and they’re free, they’re all over the place. A few days later Madeleine, who lives in Manhattan, was in Central Park near the Alice in Wonderland statue. And she found her own hawthorn tree and started eating one hawthorn after the other. She was in such a state of ecstasy that other people started joining her, picking hawthorns off this tree.

Madeleine: These are people who had never seen them before.

Steve: Right. All except one man who sort of stood on the side, and when Madeleine repeatedly asked him why he wasn't eating any he finally admitted that, well, he had opened up one and there was a worm in it. Then someone else says, "There’s a worm in mine!" "Oh, look! There’s a worm in mine!" "There’s a worm in mine too!" All the hawthorns from that tree were infested.

Madeleine: They certainly were. So I got a little protein with my hawthorn berry.

Steve: Fortunately for Madeleine, she's not a vegetarian. I guess the moral from that is look before you eat, and don’t accept a hawthorn from Madeleine. [Madeleine laughs.] But all her other nutritional information and herbs I definitely endorse. Okay, how does the hawthorn fit into Chinese medicine and what combinations is it used in?

Madeleine: Okay. Well, hawthorn berries we know are very good for the heart. They also are used in an herbal combination which has green tea and a number of other different herbs called bogenie. And you can buy this anywhere in Chinatown—it comes in tea bags. And it’s used for high cholesterol, it strengthens the stomach and helps your digestion—it’s very beneficial for someone who's trying to lose weight and burn fat, so it has a very beneficial effect of the heart. But it also increases your circulation and definitely can improve your chances of weight loss if you’re using it in this formula.

Steve: And you’ve had clients. . . where you’ve given this. . . you’ve seen they’re tests, their biochemistry. You’ve seen how they feel and their results. What observations do you have?

Madeleine: Well, I find that it is effective. I also recommend using any of these herbal supplements in conjunction with diet and exercise, because it doesn’t help to take herbs and then go out and eat McDonald’s for lunch every day. It doesn’t work that way. You really need to work on everything. And I think when the entire body is worked on and rebalanced in that way, then you can definitely have some very good results, within a short period of time—a month or two.

Steve: Of course, as the herbs aren’t drugs, their effect is real, but it is not going to hit you on the head with a hammer. So if you’re putting a lot of junk into the body it'll totally overwhelm the power the herbs have to heal and detoxify you. What about Chinese diagnosis?

Madeleine: Okay. Well, actually what I want to talk about is yin and yang which are terms I think that most people are familiar with. . .and they’re basically just two interdependent opposing forces of nature and yin we think of as having more cold quality—yang as more hot quality. And when you look at a person you know that certain people are more yin and certain people are more yang. And the idea is to be more balanced, and wherever it is that you’re out of balance we try to correct that. And we use Chinese medicine and Chinese herbs to correct the imbalances. Now, one way of diagnosing—there are a number of different ways—pulse diagnosis—tongue diagnosis—kind of a simple way which your listeners can do right now is take a look at their fingers. And if you look at your fingernails, at the base of the fingernail there are some, actually, white half-circles we call half moons. And this can give you just a general constitutional diagnosis which will tell you whether you’re more yin or more yang. Let's take a look at Steve's fingers and see how many half moons he has.

Steve: Oh, good.

Madeleine: I see two on your thumb and I see some very small ones on the rest of your fingers.

Steve: What does it mean? What does it mean?

Madeleine: Oh-Oh. Well, we know you can change it, so whatever it is right now you can change your half moons if you want to. It’s not permanent.

Steve: It’s two kinds of nail polish?

Madeleine: Besides putting nail polish on your fingers to give yourself half moons—you can increase the moons if you want to but basically the more half moons you have the more yang you are—the more yang your constitution is—and the more—if you have no half moons that would probably be indicative of someone who's very yin or who may be very depleted, and by tonifying your chi or your vital force we can increase the half moons, and we can do that through diet, through tai chi or any other form of exercise or herbs or anything else that you would do to rebalance and tone the body.

Steve: What would some of the herbs be?

Madeleine: Okay. Well, there are a lot of different herbs that you can use. I think most people have heard of ginseng. Ginseng is a very warming herb and it could be used for someone who's very yin. I think it would be beneficial for someone like that. It’s also very good for your digestion. People who feel kind of bloated after they eat and have food allergies and have problems digesting their food—it may be beneficial for them. Another good tonic herb which you can probably find almost anywhere is Peking royal jelly. It comes in little glass vials, and it has honey in it, so it’s sweet. It has a number of different herbs which will strengthen your lungs, your spleen, your liver and increase your energy. Astragolus is an herb that I think a lot of people are researching right now for its immune-stimulating properties. It has a polysaccharide which enhances the immune system. It increases the activity of your white blood cells. You can find it anywhere in Chinatown— if you walk down Canal Street you’ll see people selling herbs on the street. And astragolus looks like large tongue depressors. That’s probably the best way to describe it.

Steve: Is there somewhere you can recommend where people can get Chinese herbs where they speak English?

Madeleine: Yeah, that’s a problem with most places in Chinatown. They don’t speak English and unless you actually show them the herb they probably will give you the wrong thing if you ask for something. So you do want to go somewhere where they do speak English. And the one place I have been to, consistently, is called the Lin Sisters. It’s at Eighteen Elizabeth Street, and when you walk down Elizabeth Street off of Canal you’ll see a big sign on the street and it says herbs and it’s pretty easy to find. It’s on the left side of the street when you’re walking down.

Steve: Okay. And what other things can listeners do to educate themselves if they want to learn about herbs, Chinese medicine, American herbs, etc.

Madeleine: Well, actually, the Lin sisters, they do sell a number of books. I would also recommend going to health food stores and looking for books in other places on Chinese medicine. To begin with, one good book is called Chinese Tonic Herbs, by Ron Teagarden, and that would explain some of the major herbs that are in many of the herbal formulas that you find in Chinatown. Another company called ITM—I can give you an 800 number if you’d like—you can get in touch with them. They have a number of herbal formulas that they make themselves.

Steve: Do you have that number with you?

Madeleine: Yes, it’s 1-800-544-7504.

Steve: Okay, repeat that again. Not everyone has a pencil ready.

Madeleine: The number is 1-800-544-7504. They make a number of different supplements. They also publish books which describe the supplements that they make so that if you wanted to order some of the books you would be able to learn about what you would need to order for your own particular problem. So that can be helpful.

Steve: Oh, that’s great. Okay, we're going to be taking a break shortly. When we come back we’ll be taking your calls. You can call us at WBAI with your question about herbs at (212) 270-3400. This is Wildman Steve Brill. You’re listening to Foraging with the Wildman. My special guest is Madeleine Glick. You can get in touch with her after the show at (212) 879-6536. I will be doing wild food and ecology tours this Saturday, July 10th in Alley Pond Park, July 11th Central Park, July 17th the New Jersey Palisades, and July 18th Bear Mountain. At the end of the show I'll give my phone number so have a pencil and paper handy, and we will be able to go out into the woods, look at all the plants, and learn about nature and ecology. See you in a couple of minutes.

Steve: Okay, we're back. This is Wildman Steve Brill. You’re listening to Foraging with the Wildman, a show about nature, science, ecology and the environment. My special guest is Madeleine Glick, and we're talking about wild plants, medicinal plants, and plants are primary producers. They make all the chemicals they need to survive instead of running away or attacking something or mating with it they do it all through chemistry. So their chemistry is very, very elaborate and advanced. That’s why we can use them to change and improve our own metabolism. Since we're also products of the biological world, this is really one of the best approaches to health. We're going to be taking your calls. One caution: we cannot answer medical questions. We can’t really tell you how to treat yourself for a disease. We can tell you what herbs are used in general for treating various ailments but we can’t practice medicine on the air. Go ahead, you’re on the air on WBAI. Go ahead, turn off your radio.

Woman Caller: Thank you. Hi. . . Madeleine?

Madeleine: Hi.

Caller: I'm sorry if this is a little bit offbeat question. Please forgive me, and hello, Steve Brill.

Steve: Hi.

Caller: You’re both very dear people. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Steve. This is a little, as I said, offbeat question. I have a mother who I love more than my own life. She's in a nursing home, and she's a gastrostomy patient, which is tubular feeding in the stomach.

Madeleine: Right.

Caller: She had a major stroke—she can’t talk or even move—she had no gag reflex—but I have got her that she can eat food. I come there about three or four or five o'clock and I bring with me food to feed her. I would like very much . . . if it’s possible, Madeleine . . . you could guide me on what to feed my Mom. She's had a . . . she gets only a certain amount of medication in her and it would be so helpful to me to know what . . . to make her life better, and things that taste nice, and I'm always trying to blend things and work with things, but I don’t have the knowledge that you have as a dietitian. Would it be possible sometime to speak with you, please, to guide me a little bit?

Madeleine: Sure. I mean generally I think she must be on a tube feeding . . . is that what you said?

Caller: Yeah. She's on a tube feeding at two o'clock in the morning and then she's on a tube feeding at ten o'clock. And I come along for supper and and I feed the tray, which is meat. My mother was never a meat person.

Madeleine: Right, and it’s probably terrible, [laughs] I don’t blame her.

Caller: I don’t mind feeding her chicken and some meats, but I need not tell you . . . nursing home . . . the food's not most desirable because it’s canned peaches and canned pears.

Madeleine: Right.

Steve: What kind of things would you put in? We have a lot of calls, so we do have to . . .

Madeleine: I'll tell you what you could do. You could give her different herbal supplements to improve her immune system and to just strengthen her generally, but what I would recommend for her is, and it’s something that I’ve used for my grandmother actually because she was in the hospital recently and she's recovering from a very serious illness, there’s a product called Ultra Clear, which is essentially a meal-replacement formula that has a lot of vitamins and minerals in it. It tastes like vanilla and it’s a powder and you can mix it with either water, or if you don’t want her to drink milk you can use soy milk.

Caller: She can’t drink. I have to mix something to make things liquidy like baby food consistency.

Madeleine: It has to be thickened then. Is that what you’re saying?

Caller: Can I do that?

Madeleine: Yeah, you can use it with that consistency if you wanted to.

Caller: We have a blackout in our conversation. Would it be all right just to speak with you just a short time, some time in the future?

Madeleine: Yes.

Steve: Okay. Let me give you her number. It’s (212) 879-6536.

Caller: I have it. I thank you both so much. It’s a wonderful program and you’re such a knowledgeable person from all angles. Thank you both.

Madeleine: Okay, good luck.